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Nurse Ratched
10:16 Wed Dec 19
Re: Lockerbie
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They flew so high
They* reached the sky
Then like my dreams...
*yes, I know that's 'the wrong line'
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gank
10:11 Wed Dec 19
Re: Lockerbie
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What does this have to do with West Ham?
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southbankbornnbred
7:32 Wed Dec 19
Re: Lockerbie
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Itchy,
I can probably help you with one of those themes - point c.
So, it is now well known that a number of US intelligence or embassy personnel were on the flight, and also some who were due to be on the flight and who cancelled reservations. I recall reading that eighty per cent of embassy staff due to be on the flight cancelled their reservations. The number of staff due on Flight 103 was higher because it was so close to Christmas and many were flying home for the holiday period. In addition, Frankfurt was a hub for embassy staff or intelligence personnel based in eastern Europe, who would converge on what was then West Germany as they headed home.
The rumour about the luggage on the flight that you mention: that sounds like the uncertainty surrounding a suitcase alleged to have contained heroin or some other class A drug allegedly linked to US intelligence. The suggestion was that a unit of US intelligence was abetting Middle Eastern drug smugglers in exchange for info and access on Iraq and elsewhere. This is the supposed 'contra' deal that some people talk about.
Foot's Private Eye work recalls an incident in which a local Scottish journalist, David Johnston, attended the crash site in the immediate aftermath of the bombing. Johnston claims he witnessed US intelligence staff in their desperate search for the luggage belonging to two particular agents on the flight. One of these was Major Charles McKee, who boarded the flight at Frankfurt. He had strong ties with the Lebanon and had worked to secure the release of hostages in the state.
The other suitcase the CIA was allegedly interested in was, according to Johnston's observations on the day, full of heroin. This, reportedly, was openly discussed by desperate agents searching the wreckage - the inference is that it was what they were there to retrieve.
The accusation on this is extraordinary and unproven. But the claim is that the US was helping drugs gangs in the Middle East, running drugs from the US to the region via diplomatic luggage. The idea is that the income from the drugs was to be used to fund the release of hostages in the ME. Some ppl claim this explains why vital luggage - including, possibly, the suitcase containing the bomb, was not properly screened at Frankfurt.
But it's an entirely unproven claim - and, to me, the idea that you would run drugs to fund cash for hostages seems incredulous. Surely you'd just launder cash directly to the ME?
Still, that is Johnston's claim - backed up by other sources.
When Johnston was approached by the police to disclose all of his sources and notes on this issue, he refused. Everybody left him alone after that - and no denial about his coverage was ever issued.
It's all fecking odd.
Not sure I buy the suitcase full of heroin theory. But I certainly buy the idea that the CIA and others removed vital evidence from the crash site. That seems to be supported by a host of journalists, local residents and police officers who were in Lockerbie after the incident.
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Itchy Scratchy
6:12 Wed Dec 19
Re: Lockerbie
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Early on in the Paul Foot / Private Eye reporting of Lockerbie I recall the following also having being consistently reported in PE. However couldn't find any internet info on them so am just sharing this as something I remember.
1. The Body Count. There were reports that the coroner from West Yorkshire of that era was brought in, (I assume among others), to assist. However he was discredited because he always insisted there was one more body than the official count and that the US Secret Service removed that body. BUT... as someone who has worked in the airline industry, and received these official reports, (which included details of passengers deaths and the nature of what happened to cause the death, pretty grisly stuff I can assure you). I can tell you that bodies on the whole do not stay in one piece. It is normal for a body to be disintegrated / in multiple pieces / parts. As such determining numbers is sometimes significantly more difficult that people realise.
2. US Secret Service - Had unrestricted access to the debris and removed items. No details of the items, of course, as they had been removed.
3. Luggage - Paul Foot / PE reported that the US SS had placed items in the cargo hold with diplomatic immunity and that rumours were this could have been the cause of the explosion. There was more detail on this in those PE editions.
Very frustrating not to be able to find any supporting info in this day and age, so maybe they were proven to be false. But at the time PE was running with these comments for a long time. If anyone has access to back copies and can search, would be interesting to see if you can find any references.
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Far Cough
5:39 Wed Dec 19
Re: Lockerbie
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That Hanratty case was a dodgy one right from the start
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joyo
4:32 Wed Dec 19
Re: Lockerbie
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Basically he said they hung a innocent man for decades because he was against the death penalty.....but they didn't,they hung a murdering scumbag rapist!
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southbankbornnbred
3:11 Wed Dec 19
Re: Lockerbie
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Yeah, granted, the Hanratty case was later stood up by DNA evidence (not available when Foot looked at it).
But at least Foot was doing what good journalists are paid to do: getting his hands dirty and asking proper questions of significant public interest - about the anomalies in the Hanratty case (of which there were many, prior to the DNA evidence).
It's not the job of these journalists to 'solve' cases. That's ultimately for the police, and a jury to decide upon.
But it is the job of good journalists to ask questions when things do not stack up - and to keep asking them when you don't get legitimate answers, even when you're told to go away. Foot did that superbly throughout his career - he would not be waved away by authority just because it was convenient for the authorities. Instead, he analysed evidence and question it wherever it was flimsy (the evidence that existed in the early days of the Hanratty case was flimsy) or required clarification.
That's good journalism. Too many lambs, not enough lions in "Fleet St" these days. They think landing an interview with Harry Redknapp over I'm a Celeb is journalism. I guess it is - of sorts.
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joyo
7:36 Wed Dec 19
Re: Lockerbie
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Ron_anal gets it wrong on everything!
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joyo
7:32 Wed Dec 19
Re: Lockerbie
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Foot got it wrong on the A6 murderer James Hanratty though didn't he!
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Nurse Ratched
12:28 Wed Dec 19
Re: Lockerbie
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Whack it on your profile. Merry Christmas.
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Ronald_antly
12:07 Wed Dec 19
Re: Lockerbie
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Nurse Ratched 10:17 Tue Dec 18
"You're not stupid."
That's the nicest thing anyone has ever said about me on here, Matron.
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Nurse Ratched
2:52 Tue Dec 18
Re: Lockerbie
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He was a superb journalist.
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southbankbornnbred
2:06 Tue Dec 18
Re: Lockerbie
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And, yes, I know Foot was politically aligned to the SWP. But his journalism was evidence-based first and foremost. All hacks have some sort of political affiliation, but the best ones cast that aside to look at the facts and see where it takes them.
With Lockerbie, as with the Bridgewater case, every time Foot scratched below the surface of the official narrative, he unearthed evidence of glaring anomalies and inconsistencies. To the point where, by the end, almost none of what remains the official 'story' stacks up.
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Northern Sold
2:04 Tue Dec 18
Re: Lockerbie
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Blimey GO you never blamed the Hebrews.....
* reads again *
... Oh... you mentioned Spielberg.... sorry... as you were....
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southbankbornnbred
1:45 Tue Dec 18
Re: Lockerbie
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I'll take Paul Foot's independence and legitimacy over any former Mossad agent any day of the week.
It's not that every ex-Mossad agent is lying, of course. I'm quite sure that many of them now operating in private investigations etc are extremely good and accurate. It's just that these people are precisely the sort of people who have a track record in being paid to muddy waters rather than clear them. Even in retirement, it's hard to tell what their motivations are, and where the blurred lines may begin or end.
Foot was a straight down the line, old skool gum-shoe investigator who followed the facts - wherever it took him.
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Coffee
1:23 Tue Dec 18
Re: Lockerbie
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Golden Oldie 1:06 Tue Dec 18
Sorry to hear that.
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Golden Oldie
1:11 Tue Dec 18
Re: Lockerbie
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There you were...
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Biggie Biggs
1:10 Tue Dec 18
Re: Lockerbie
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and here he is .....
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Golden Oldie
1:06 Tue Dec 18
Re: Lockerbie
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Even really dumb people need to eventually ask themselves now and again, why would a terrorist commit the ultimate act of sacrifice, yet never make any effort to inform the world just why they decided to make the ultimate sacrifice and instead trust/allow the MSM to invent the entire narrative on their behalf instead?
Pan Am had hired a former MOSSAD agent Yuval Aviv. His investigation showed that MOSSAD agents knew about the attack and even tipped off the US and German intelligence agencies.
His evidence of the bombing was used to first blame it on Syria, then Islamic Iran and finally settling on Libya.
Much like the sexed up dossier was used as "evidence" to illegally attack Iran and pretty much every middle eastern territory invasion over the past 70 years the same procedure of 'investigation' was employed.
Steven Spielberg announced in 2008 to direct a movie based on Aviv’s allegations against Islamic Republic – just as he did in case of Oscar-winning Hollywood movie Munich based on the l̶i̶e̶s̶/evidence of the agent Yuval Aviv.
One thing we can all learn from this is that conspiracies perhaps do indeed happen, but only when the mainstream media BBC/CNN/Fox/Hollywood et al confirm the case for the average pleb.
Two close friends of mine at school lost their mother and all her sisters of their extended Irish family who incidentally were returning from a funeral, in that attack, the whole thing was covered up and lied about by the US and UK from the start. The families of the victims were all pretty much press ganged into accepting all findings just to clear up the compensation dragging on for an eternity.
All anyone will find are threads of DisInfo leading to even more Disinfo from the lying liars tasked with leading the investigations
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southbankbornnbred
12:31 Tue Dec 18
Re: Lockerbie
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Final little snippet for you...
Oct 1988: German police arrest a gang of Palestinian terrorists closely linked to Iran. In a car owned by a gang member is a bomb built into a Toshiba radio cassette player.
Dec 5th 1988: Man with Middle East accent telephones US embassy in Helsinki warning a woman would unwittingly carry a bombv onto a Pan Am flight from Frankfurt within the next two weeks.
Dec 9th: US officials tell Pan Am they think the warning is a hoax.
Dec 13th: Alleged hoax warning still appears on messageboard inside US embassy in Moscow. Diplomats cancel flights.
21 Dec 1988: Pan Am Flight 103 out of Frankfurt, Germany, blows up over Lockerbie, killing 270 people. The bomb on the plane was fitted inside a Toshiba radio cassette player.
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southbankbornnbred
12:10 Tue Dec 18
Re: Lockerbie
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Nah, it just means that anybody could have strolled into Germany and bought the timers - which was contrary to what the world had been told. Previously, the 'experts' in the US and elsewhere had assured us all that the timers were only available in 'That There Terrible People's Republic of LibyaDaffi'.
Turned out to be bollocks. Like the rest of the Lockerbie narrative.
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